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I think that this article is a parody. It states that a loving God sends people (atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Hindus, pagans and majority of human kind) to hell--Monkeyman 10:17, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Not the article; just the last line. Fixed, thanks. Philip J. Raymentdiscuss 12:22, 13 April 2009 (UTC)


Eastern Orthodoxy and Universalism

I replaced "eternal separation from God" with "eternal suffering," since from my understanding, the Eastern Orthodox view is rather the opposite of separation. I also added some information on the meaning of the Greek aion, and the resultant argument for compatibility of universalism with the scriptures. Christopher Henry 05:55, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm removing your information about aion, as it was irrelevant. The edit presumed that the meaning of the word was the basis for considering hell to be eternal, but this is not the case. Philip J. Raymentdiscuss 01:26, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
I thought that you were talking about the Greek word for "hell", but I now suspect that you are talking about the Greek word for "eternal", in which case my rational may not stand.
However, I would still question the edit. You are not just questioning Christian doctrine, but the knowledge of numerous independent translators. And I do suspect that hell being eternal is not based just on that word anyway. For example, Daniel 12:2 also indicates that hell is eternal, and of course Daniel was not written in Greek.
Philip J. Raymentdiscuss 01:41, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Sorry I haven't been around much in the last couple days - I've been busy. Daniel 12:2 uses one of the forms (I don't actually read Hebrew, so I can't do better than look up a word and then hunt to see whether or not it appears in a text) of olam, which is translated with aion or its derivatives in the Septuagint, and has the same ambiguity - e.g. Jonah uses it in reference to how long he was in the whale. Young's Literal Translation, which was motivated precisely by the translators belief in Biblical inerrancy, renders both olam and aion and "age" and their adjectival forms as "age-during." As for questioning Christian doctrine, I will observe that you yourself have argued that Christian doctrine is not what a majority, even an overwhelming majority, of Christians believe, but rather what is supported by the scriptures. Thus, I would say that, by your own definitions, I am not so much questioning Christian doctrine as I am questioning whether a certain set of beliefs, commonly thought to be Christian doctrine, actually are.
Christopher Henry 04:43, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
I don't read Hebrew either, nor Greek, so my approach is not much different to yours.
According to Strong's Concordance, aion (a???) means

prop. an age; by extens. perpetuity (also past); by impl. the world; spec. (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):—age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end).

However, aionios means

perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):—eternal, forever, everlasting, world (began).

Matthew 25:46 uses the latter, which apparently doesn't have the same range of the former, even though the latter is based on the former.
Isaiah 66:24 uses different words again; in this case the idea of eternity is not conveyed simply by the meaning of a word, but by the meaning of the phrase.
I wasn't having a go at you for questioning Christian doctrine. Indeed, if it's at odds with the Bible, it should be questioned. However, this should not be done without good reason, and especially where the doctrine concerned has basically been held consistently by Christians for the past 2000 years. In any case, my point was that you were questioning the knowledge of the translators. The meaning of many words depends a lot on their context, and it's usually unwise to question the meaning of a word out of context. Bible translators take into account the context of the adjacent text and apply the meaning that applies in that context, and given that the translators have been consistent in translating this word as 'everlasting' or 'eternal' in these cases, then presumably they would be translating it correctly, and a simplistic argument that it is used in different ways at times isn't a good argument.
Philip J. Raymentdiscuss 11:48, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Eternal torment

Wouldn't you eventually get used to it, like a hot tub? -- Edgerunner76 18:31, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

That is not a common view among mainstream theologians, no.--CPalmer 18:51, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
Does Hell have an Ironic Punishment Division? -- Edgerunner76 19:38, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
See the Punishments section in my Inferno entry on Conservapedia. But remember that Dante was extrapolating a great deal from fairly sketchy starting points.
Regarding eventually getting used to eternal punishment, you might also be interested in the "hellfire" sermon in Joyce's Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, which I remember had an explanation.--CPalmer 20:25, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
"Sketchy" being the understatement of the week month year decade century millenium. User 11speak to me 22:03, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
I think this captures the concept of eternal punishment quite succinctly. --DinsdaleP 22:10, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Heaven and Hell: Same place?

aSK being an online repository for the punk and ska musical genres got me to thinking that Heaven and Hell might be the same place. If Heaven were to take the form of an eternal punk rock concert, someone like WesleyS might find that to be Heaven. On the other hand, it would quite certainly be Hell for me. -- Edgerunner76 19:44, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

In all seriousness, I seem to recall hearing someone propose that the main torment in Hell is the presence of God - the same thing that's the main joy in Heaven. Interesting idea, but I don't know how it'd fit with, say, Revelation 20:10. Any thoughts? --EvanW 19:52, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
Another related view is that the righteous might find heaven everywhere, and the unrighteous will be likewise find themselves tormented wherever they end up.--CPalmer 20:29, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
I'd be fine as long as the "righteous" were somewhere else or at least keeping their "righteousness" to themselves... ħuman Number 19 01:30, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
Quite. Thou shalt not shove it in everyone's face.--CPalmer 09:27, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Words translated as "Hell" in the Bible

It would be desirable to describe the use and meaning of words in the Bible that refer to or are often translated as Hell.

Sheol, Hades: Refers to death or the grave. In fact, I think Jesus' use of "paradise", both in parable and to the thief, had a similar meaning. In OT times these may have been considered permanent, but Revelation (at least) declares that it is temporary, pending the final judgment.

Gehenna: Used as a metaphor, often a play on words with two meanings; presumably sometimes for the final Hell as understood by Christians.

Outer Darkness: Another metaphor for the final Christian Hell.

Lake of fire: Also presumably a metaphor, but seems to be the "official" term for the final state of the condemned.

In my opinion, Hell ought to properly refer to the final state, although this article ought to consider other meanings, including such things as the "gates of Hell" reference to Satan's kingdom.

--Unsigned comment by Disciple (talk)

Without commenting on your definitions, your suggestions for article content sound like good ideas. Philip J. Raymentdiscuss 14:34, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
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